Joe Rogan: The Alpha Comic
One of the biggest pieces of advice I can give to any guy starting out trying to improve his life, especially with women, is to find a guy who can mentor him in that area — or whatever area he wants guidance in, be it women, business, health, or what have you.
I think all men need role models and mentors. For previous generations of men, those roles have been filled by their fathers, but for at least two generations — maybe three — American men have done without fathers, for the most part.
Without getting too political or polemic, I’ll just say that in response to this lack of mentor figures, men have been characteristically creative in finding role models and mentors when they aren’t provided for us by strong, dominant father figures.
I think one a good public example of a dominance, strong masculine figure is Joe Rogan.
Joe is a comic, which leads me to another piece of advice — if you really want to get great with women, try some stand-up comedy. Few things will force you to refine your sense of humor, frame control, dominance and wit like stand up comedy will.
Remember why Marilyn Monroe said:
If you can get a woman to laugh, you can get her to do anything.
I pick Joe as a good example of a masculine guy not only because he’s a pseudo-celebrity (co-hosted Fear Factor and the Man Show) but because he’s very outspoken, and consequently there are a number of clips on YouTube showing him in various social situations that I think are very instructive.
Without further ado, our first clip of Joe: dealing with a female heckler.
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RddzHh9bfyY]
Dealing with hecklers is a fundamental part of being a comedian. Notice how he essentially integrates her into his existing routine without a beat. It’s not so much stand-up as improv, and the most important thing to notice is how the humor of the entire thing turns on the status transactions taking place.
Most of comedy, as well as a lot of improv, has to do with status transactions.
Some may say Joe was too rough with this girl, and destroyed her too thoroughly, but I think that’s just picking nits — it’s a stylistic choice.
Now watch a similar scenario, only this time Joe confronts an obnoxious cock block at a party, a woman who is trying to establish dominance over him.
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lXUd7VxuSA]
Notice how the woman totally interrupts a natural social interaction (a sarge, really) and scares the “hotter” girl away (at 0:04). Joe is still being cool and social, even though she violated social rules by rudely interrupting an existing conversation.
Her entire initial spiel (0:04 to 1:24) is an attempt to build her own value in Joe’s eyes. She is qualifying herself to him, but trying to do it in such a way that she seems cool and aloof. She’s essentially trying to neg him — which tells us that she sees him as higher value than her (and rightly so).
But her routine isn’t gaining any traction. Joe is throwing her small subtle digs. He’s not impressed and he’s not being drawn into her frame. So she goes on the attack (at 1:24 to 1:30) and ups the ante very quickly, trying to establish dominance.
She’s done a poor job reading his character, though (pick-up artists would call it a miscalibration), because Joe blows up at her.
This, my friends, is a pure example of masculine anger being expressed in an appropriate and justified way. He pops off right at 1:30; notice that, in the face of sustained male anger, in just about 20 seconds, this chick is completely backpedaling and trying to gain rapport with him by asking him desperately, over and over again, what his previous point was. She’s trying to rewind the social clock back to the period when he was being polite and calmly debating her.
But she is the one who upped the ante and provoked him; and if science has proven one thing, it is that men are easier to arouse to anger, and stay angry and aroused longer than women do. And this holds true for Joe.
This woman, Lydia whoever, actually got a chance to disengage (at 2:06). But she keeps trying to re-engage him. If she were smarter with men, she would know that once a guy’s anger is aroused, there’s no going backwards (just like there’s no going backwards in a sarge). In fact, she is unable to break out of her own limited frame and continues to try to subtly one-up Joe, making snide comments here and there and finally touching him at 3:18.
I talked about touching guys to one-up them in this post. This kind of patronizing touch she tries to pull is very insulting, and Joe doesn’t stand for it for one minute. Now, bear in mind when you are watching him throw her hand away, that this is America — that is a dangerous act. Some women in this country would try to press charges. Not many, I’ll admit, but enough.
Luckily, Lydia whoever isn’t that dumb. I think she can sense, at least subconsciously, that she’s finally dealing with an honest-to-God Dominant Male.
And who is this douchebag that has his arm around her protectively midway through the incident? And why isn’t Joe afraid of this guy that’s obviously her date and probably her husband?
Because Joe is aware of social dynamics and knows that this guy, who won’t even stand up to his own wife, certainly won’t stand up to a veteran of mixed martial arts who is also wickedly funny and socially keen.
These suspicions are confirmed at 4:42. It’s her beta-male provider, who is not only not standing up to Joe, but also sort of thanking him:
I love her dearly but you’re the first guy who’s stood up to her in that respect.
It is easy to see Joe’s Alpha to this guy’s beta with Joe’s instant comeback, “You’re the guy that likes getting slapped?”
The couple backpedals and tries to regain some of the frame, but without much success.
Lesson: there is danger in pissing off Joe Rogan (and any dominant male).
And now for something completely different.
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoQjzJWUvgk]
Here, Joe Rogan goes up against Carlos Mencia, who stands accused of stealing jokes from other comics.
Now, this video is cursed with some horrible carnival music, but you can skip ahead to the action bit itself, which starts at 0:36. Notice how, at the very beginning, the crowd is entirely against Joe and on Carlos’ side.
Now, the video is damn near 10 minutes long, but you don’t even have to watch the entire thing to get the effect. You can, and I think it’s worth it (apart from the ear-killing music) but if you’d rather just get the gory bits, simply click over to the 8:00 minute mark, and see how the on-stage battle ended up: with the crowd totally in favor of Joe, and booing Mencia.
Now that’s frame control.
Notice also how resilient Joe is; he doesn’t back down even though he starts out on stage, without a microphone, trying to yell over both Mencia’s augmented voice and the crowd’s reactions. Talk about unshakeable confidence; vocal projection definitely required.
More people know Joe from UFC and Fear Factor than his standup, so I’ll close with the following clip which, although it’s mostly about UFC, still happens to be extremely pertinent to the concept of the Alpha Male and masculine dominance.
If you want to get right to the meat, click forward to 3:45 and watch through about 6:00.
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_BlX8PmTe0]
March 30th, 2007 at 6:04 am
Nice bro.
March 31st, 2007 at 1:00 am
I stop by this site regularly, it’s got depth, very relevant articles and thought provoking. Thanks thirtyplus
I can see from the video, Joe (as depicted in the videos) is Alpha. But I don’t agree with his style. He comes across as very reactive, loses his temper.
For example in second video he clearly loses it with the women (albeit he was provoked), this can be potentially dangerous if you are unlucky : It is escalation.
In the third video - there is a lot of shouting over each other (unless this was the part of the show) ; is largely ineffective.
May be has built this public identity as an outspoken guy and audience expect him to do it etc., But in my opinion ; if you lose your temper you might as well pack up and leave, you have lost the argument. I agree it is hard to remain calm when provoked, but that is the challenge.. In my experience you can come up with far better comebacks if you are indifferent to the attack and remain calm, mind works much better, just like you have less control when you drive faster.
Only time when you can come across angry is when you are deliberately pretending to be angry, when you want to send a strong message…
Ever watched, Tony Blair in a press conference ? -Ease with which he sidesteps attacks from journalists is more graceful than a balle dancer floating around on stage. That skill is definetely something to aspire for.
April 1st, 2007 at 1:09 pm
The topic is really interesting as are many of the articles on this blog that I read regularly… it’s all good stuff and worthy information. Thanks for the FREE treat !
Back to that article and videos, it showed to me once more that the concept of who’s reacting the most in the interaction is the one of lower value can be misleading as it has been for me when I first heard it. I become kind of stone faced and thought that I was then having higher value which was the total opposite because I could not simply connect with people totally hiding any emotion (even laughter) which are there to bond with people.
Although Joe seems to have his anger out of hands at some point and made me doubt as to wether he was really having the upper hand. The flexibility of behaviour he demonstrates (anger, humour, sarcasm to totally normal as he talks to somebdy else around) contrasts with the way this woman tries to have people joining in and witnessing what she attempts to point out as anti-social agressive behaviour as well as defending herself with a very monotonous tone of voice.
Thanks again for the analysis of this brilliant piece of social dynamic, this blog rocks ! Keep the articles coming, they’re money !
April 19th, 2007 at 2:49 am
I agree with Tin tin. Personally one of Rogans greatest strengths seems to be his greatest weakness, his ability to fight. I have tremendous respect for his martial art skills, being that he’s a black belt and former tae-kwon-doe champ.
However its his confidence in these abilities that makes him so comfortable getting into confrontations, to the point where he actually seems to be looking for a fight. The strongest people are those who have the ability to beat the ever loving shit out of you, but use every ounce of their energy not to strike you down when you provoke them. Think Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee.
As TinTin said before hes very reactive. Once people see they can get a rise out of you they will keep coming at you till you break, same principle applies if your a doormat.
By the way, thanks for not being like all the other slezy PUG’s that charge an arm and a leg for material that half the time ends up being overpriced crap. Your blog is intelligent and very well written (don’t get a big head on me now).
- The popped collar has spoken
July 4th, 2007 at 10:57 am
This guys aint cool, this guys angry…and it also seems that the moderator of this site will remove my comment as its not “calibrated” to the rest of the commetns, and the article itself. This guys is an utter wank, a loud mouth..this is not Alpha..the fella is INSECURE.
July 4th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
Lil big dick,
Plenty of people react to Joe Rogan as you do, by wanting to call him insecure, a loud mouth, a wank. That reaction has a lot of information in it.
Ask yourself, why do I feel / think he is an utter wank and a loud mouth? What about him provokes such a visceral reaction in me?
You will learn a lot about yourself.
====
To some other comments, I agree that Joe seems to be losing his temper at some points of the first video. That comes with being out and drinking at night, and being a man. Sometimes people lose their temper. Since we are all such optimizers, it’s easy to point a finger at that one thing and say it disqualifies Joe from being Alpha. But I think that reaction misses the forest for the trees.
October 19th, 2007 at 10:36 am
Thirtyplus,
First off, congrats on the site, great work. I’ve been reading a lot of these articles not because I’m in desperate need of attracting women (but who can’t use more women?) , but rather finding the psychology behind all this incredibly interesting. I was curious as to what you thought about this..”The problem I have with lots of these techniques and the alpha male thing is that I feel like I’m already so confident or such an alpha male, that I just don’t give a fuck to care to exert any energy to display it unless it really benefits me. What are your thoughts on this? For example, in the Joe Rogan situation with the rude woman, I could care less about what she thought or what she told me to do so I might just walk away or ignore the request altogether. Basically take the path of least resistance since I could give a fuck what she thought and her opinion means nothing to me. To me it’s kind of like a 6 year old special ed kid saying he thinks you’re ugly. Who cares?
This kind of ties into dealing with women as well. Do I really have to “dumb things down” and give them a couple NEGS to vocalize to her I have the upper hand when deep down inside I already believe chances are she doesn’t stand a chance to have anything longterm with me? Because if I’m nice to a girl and not willing to say she looks fat or whatever, it’s not because I’m trying to suck up to her. I just don’t care about framing myself when I already know where I stand on the inside. I guess I think of it this way…if a little kid comes up to you and asks if you like his drawing…even if it sucks, you’ll say it’s great just to be nice. You don’t think about making sure you establish dominance or show that you’re an alpha male. Haha..I guess this can be taken as a very condescending point of view and probably means I really am even more cocky and alpha male-ish than the guys giving NEGS. But would you say that doesnt matter because the girls are unable to pick up on my confidence so I have to dumb it down and try to make it obvious? (even though to me, doing all this work framing and establishing position seems to be LESS alphamaleish) That’s how I feel. What are your thoughts?
October 19th, 2007 at 10:44 am
Whoops..one other thing to go along with my previous post…when you talk about the woman attacking Joe, saying….”She’s essentially trying to neg him — which tells us that she sees him as higher value than her (and rightly so).”
Doesn’t that work the other way around? I would think that girls would be able to see through a guy, if upon minutes after meeting him, he starts saying things like “I guess you don’t look…THAT weird..” Are girls too stupid to think “Wow! He has low self esteem and he’s trying to put me down with these stupid subtle digs because he’s trying to fight for position….WEAKKKK”??
October 20th, 2007 at 5:24 pm
Hey twentyplus,
To your second comment: that would be a woman overanalyzing the situation and second-guessing herself. If a guy is not congruent with his own sense of value, the result you mentioned may come about. Be congruent whatever your internal sense of value is.
To your first comment: you are asking if you can outframe the whole alpha-beta dynamic by just saying you’re too alpha to care, and essentially so alpha you don’t need to display how alpha you are? That sounds like a cop out to me. If you’re really so alpha, why shouldn’t everyone around you naturally be able to tell that, from your words and behaviors?
Just some thoughts for you to chew on.
PS: Your example about the 6-year-old special ed kid doesn’t fly. The value gap between us and a 6-year-old special ed kid we DON’T want to fuck is much, much larger than the value gap between us and a pretty 10 we DO want to fuck who is maybe a year or two younger than us.